Simple English ~ Nicola Prentis

Thoughts on ELT, English and whatever else comes into my head

Is there discourse against women in ELT?

At this year’s IATEFL, Russ Mayne and I gave a talk called “Where are the women in ELT?”. It was attended by about 50 people, crammed into a 40 seater room, but has been talked about by twice that many people if the online debates are anything to go by. See Steve Brown’s post following the talk and Scott Thornbury’s reference to it. Healthy public debate was what we expected. Other conversations took place on social media and those were a bit different — at least the ones I saw. This post is about the one that surprised me the most and happened on Facebook after someone who was at the talk posted a photo and a positive comment about the talk.

Reasonable discussion of issues and implications followed, including both male and female commenters, and some suggestions were made of things that could be done to even up the imbalance of gender in worldwide plenary roles. Not everyone agreed with everything said but discussion was impersonal and civilised.

And then this comment was made, by a man, which provides a noteworthy window into what happened next.

What I found interesting was how many of the women in publishing who attended the talk simply felt insulted by it – and rightly so. They are some of the women in ELT, after all. One of them (with whom I had a chat afterwards) felt it had essentially negated both her place in the industry and the work she’d achieved. It’s not all about being a plenary speaker, surely?

I find it interesting that, in a talk titled ‘Where are the women in ELT?‘ women who had been in the talk had not felt able to voice their opinions. Why was that? It wasn’t because we ran out of time with hands still up. Was it down to the often-cited view that women are more hesitant to put themselves forward? Perhaps the women in the room were feeling intimidated or just generally prefer not to speak out in public. I have only heard from women that didn’t feel the talk insulted them so I could only have supposed that none felt this way.

But anyway, should a man be speaking for the women here? I’m fairly sure we didn’t say anything that negated women’s contribution to ELT. In fact, we were saying that despite their massive presence and contribution, it is still the men that people think of first when they think of who the big names are in ELT (which is possibly influenced by who does plenaries but was not given as the only reason for asking the title question).

I won’t go into it in anymore detail without hearing from someone who felt we were insulting them. Will I hear from them?

Maybe not. Here’s one reason why:

Could it be that women worry they might be open to personal attack if they say something not everyone likes?

Surely not. Not in ELT where everyone is so supportive and, as I have described in the Facebook chat about that talk, constructive.

Yet, here is what was flung at me by a well-known ELT male in the rest of that chat (bold added by me).

MAN 2: I quite enjoyed the first half, and there are clearly issues about the continuing patriarchal society we live in, and the lack of female representation in many many areas of life. The idea to have a webpage of female speakers who are out there and samples of their work is also great, and the Fair List’s pressure for greater equality is all good.

However, it became preposterous and I’d suggest embarrassing for those concerned when it got to the top ten most famous section – and particularly to the interpretation of that data. Embarrassing for Russell because last year he was so acute on bad science and the way personal intentions can skew interpretation, but seems to have had a bypass on that front here; embarrassing for Nicola because it came across as barely concealed desperate desire for whatever the limited currency of TEFL ‘stardom’ may bestow on her.

The bottom line is this: whatever you may feel about any of the folk in the top ten, the fact is they are there on the back of their bodies of work. They have written work that resonates with teachers and that has stood the test of time. Nicola suggested that the only way she could ever find herself in that list is to invent a time machine. It’s not. It’s simple. She sits down tomorrow and starts writing a book – or series of books – that in 20 years from now will be a standard. You want the ‘fame’? Go do the long hard hours.

ME: There is an interesting phenomenon, described, I think by Sheryl Sandberg, that when a woman says something it is perceived more negatively than when a man says it, and so is she. Seems like that’s unfortunately relevant here. That interpretation [my interpretation of the reasons the top ten names are who they are] makes sense … and others in publishing have drawn the same conclusion when I’ve mentioned it to them. What other interpretation would you put there?

MAN 2: Can we please try to have the discussion without it being suggested that somehow disagreeing with the person making the interpretation is in somehow a result of their gender? Had it been Russ who made those comments about being cheaper than Scott and keen to get the perceived (but largely actually fictional) benefits of this limited notion of ‘stardom’, I’d [have] been commenting on him instead.

ME: That was a joke! Another thing women [are] less favourably perceived for. I am also not sure I said I was “keen” to be famous — if ELT can be considered to have fame. I pointed out my lesser opportunities as they seem to be.

It seems that a throwaway joke, during the Q&A session (watch the last few minutes of the session to see) following the talk, cost me in the eyes of this guy who was apparently speaking for “plenty” of people. Which is not surprising as women and humour is something that is defined by inherent social misogyny according to studies. Women are not funny, runs the stereotype. Firstly, if women are perceived as less funny than men in general, that suggests it’s more likely that a woman making a joke is seen as being serious. Secondly, if women make a joke it is more likely to be perceived negatively and, probably as a result, women are more likely than men to make a self-deprecating joke.

How many of these “rules” was I breaking by presuming to compare myself to the most well-known man in ELT? Well, one, I made a joke. Two, I made an “arrogant” joke instead of one that played down my abilities like I am “supposed” to do as a female. The fact that people laughed doesn’t seem to matter — at least to this guy and the “plenty” of people who, allegedly, but silently, felt the same.

Then another tribe member chips in:

MAN 3: I do hope, Nicola that you are not engaged in special pleading. The comments here, both positive and negative, reflect equally on both you and Russell.

Except they don’t reflect equally, do they? The (much briefer because he didn’t respond at the time) comments made against Russ were about a perception of his actions i.e. not having presented robust enough science. The comment levelled at me was against my character and motivations. Never mind the fact that we both researched and planned that talk and wrote the survey, so I was neither credited nor blamed for the science and action part. Perhaps the assumption is that I was too busy getting my hair done for my moment in the spotlight while Russ was out there doing science stuff.

MAN 2: …it [the talk] became about how hard it was to break into [the top ten] – and whether you want to hear it or not, there seemed to be barely submerged sub-text that it was particularly hard for YOU to break into. That may not have been the intention; it doesn’t negate the other things you mentioned like it’s hard generally to break into; and it may not be a subtext everyone felt was there. Plenty did, however. […] All I was trying to say was that there was a fairly widely-held perception that this was a sub-text.

Again, we have an accusation against my character. And note that, although it apparently didn’t negate the other things I mentioned, it was more worthy of comment than they were. So, not only am I self-serving and fame hungry, I am underhand about it. Again, once you understand the social forces at play in defining gender, this is not so surprising. In a Fortune magazine cited study into how men and women are reviewed for their performance at work, the women were reviewed with more criticism than the men.

This kind of negative personality criticism—watch your tone! step back! stop being so judgmental!—shows up twice in the 83 critical reviews received by men. It shows up in 71 of the 94 critical reviews received by women.

That’s an incredible difference. I, or any woman Russ might have been speaking with, would have been about 30 something times more likely to be perceived negatively. Gender bias affects all our discourse and the ones that benefit from it are, unsurprisingly, the least able to see it.  The voices shouting so loudly, ironically while commenting on a talk about gender bias, were some of the very same “old, white men” that have all the power and privilege in most areas of society. Call them out for it and you get accused of “social pleading”.

Also, “plenty”? Plenty of whom? None of the people I spoke to directly at the time and none that I’ve seen since have commented on my stardom-seeking behaviour. Again, why are “they” letting someone else speak for them? What was notable about this thread was the absence of women once it got aggressive. Maybe “they” are women who didn’t feel it was safe to speak up in case they were shouted down.

I’ve shown this thread to different people, some of whom were present at the talk and some who were not, and the word “bullying” has been used to describe the three men (no 60/40 split here!) who had taken over the conversation at this point. It’s not a term I would use myself as I think it’s used so often it loses its meaning, but also because it implies a victim and I can perfectly well stand up for myself. But I can clearly see how many people, male and female, wouldn’t want to be exposed to this kind of attack online.

As for the actual charge of using the talk as a vehicle for my own stardom, it sounds so ridiculous written down that I almost don’t need to address it. Listening to the talk online should make it obvious how unfounded that view is but, since we’re here and not everyone will watch it, here’s how the (to put it charitably) “misinterpretation” might have occurred: I self-referenced a few times and used a personal example about having a child.

The self-references were meant as a stand-in for anyone like me i.e. female in ELT. For example, it’s more difficult for me to do X than a man. The child-related point, in retrospect, could have been better left out as it wasn’t expressed in a way that sounded relevant and was part of a slide that we’d cut where it might have made more sense. But it hardly marks me as any different from many of the male speakers I see who pepper talks generously with tales of themselves.

And, on further reflection, what exactly does Man 2’s accusation amount to? Ambition? That’s another trait in women that doesn’t correlate with positive reactions. In a study about women who show ambition for political power:

In one study looking at the potential backlash for women seeking to gain political power, Okimoto and Brescoll (2010) found that female politicians who expressed their desire for power were viewed as less competent, less caring and less sensitive than non-power seeking females. These women were less likely to be voted for and sparked feelings of moral outrage in voters. Men did not suffer any negative consequences for their public ambition and expression of power-seeking actually improved perceptions of male politicians in some scenarios.

I’ve not identified those men, although I considered it and am not sure why I haven’t. I pointed out that it was a shame no-one had made these comments to my face, during the talk and they assured me that this was not cowardice and Facebook is a public place. I would call it a semi-public place since only the friends of the person who posted the original post were able to see it. If they think of it as a public forum, it does rather give me permission to put it in an actual public form. Suffice to say these are ELT names you probably know.

Anyone that thinks ELT is all smiley, happy PLNs wants to spend a bit more time on Facebook where the knives are regularly sharpened. Whether the problem is sexism or that is just a facet of a wider aspect of human nature — general unpleasantness — you decide.


29 comments on “Is there discourse against women in ELT?

  1. Pingback: Criticisms and replies | Gender Equality ELT

  2. Jessica Watson
    May 3, 2015

    Hi there, I think you have made some very valid points, sounds like an unpleasant exchange between you and the 3 other people, they sounded threatened, I wonder if that is the case, and if so why? Thank you for raising this issue,

    • Nicola
      May 3, 2015

      I was very surprised by the direction it took!

  3. Anthony Gaughan
    May 3, 2015

    Speaking as a man (which naturally gives what I am about to say significantly more weight, don’t you think?), this post has given me much pause for thought. Thank you.

    I also enjoyed your talk with Russ (having blagged one of the last seats) and I think I got – and found funny – most of the jokes you cracked.

    The trouble is, there’s that old saw “ne’er a truer word was spoken in jest”, and this is perhaps why, more generally, it was hard for some not to not take you as only half-joking. Especially when speaking about a topic for which there is no safe neutral ground for any of us – we are all, after all, born into one or the other and claims of impartiality are therefore, sadly, fraught. You say you were surprised by the turn it took; I was surprised that you were surprised!

    I also find interesting that while the first commenter here (a woman) wrote words of thanks and further enquiry, I (a man) am writing to critique or counterpoint aspects of your post. That, in itself, is something for me to go away and ponder.

    Thanks again.

    • Nicola
      May 4, 2015

      I think that the “ne’er a truer word was spoken in jest” can only apply to other jokier comments during the talk — and there I agree with you. jokes are usually funny precisely because they have some root in truth. But the one that this post refers to is my joke about being cheaper than Scott. So, the truth part is the price (if these things work like that?!) and that gives the joke the truth relatable element whereas the actual joke is that I would be in Scott’s place. Clearly I wasn’t serious about that on any level whatsoever. And I am sure (but can’t prove of course) based on the research I quote and general life experience that had a man made that joke, he wouldn’t have been torn down for it.

      The thing I am surprised about is not that people got antsy about there being a list (someone did something which opened a similar hornet’s nest a few years ago) nor that certain people who are part of the beneficiaries of the privilege of being a white male got upset, I was taken unawares by the personal nature of the attack/debate. Maybe I wouldn’t have been had I read some of the studies I’ve quoted in the post beforehand. And the other thing I’m surprised about is that some other things in the Q&A session were not controversial enough to lead the discussion in other directions. For example, one of the commenters (a man) called the Top Ten “marketing monkeys”. Can you imagine if I had said that??????

  4. richardosborne14
    May 3, 2015

    I think this debate has ignited defensiveness and criticism from many different sides, but the people selected for quotation here and Nicola’s reaction to them are a good example of how people are starting to miss the point.

    It’s clear that ELT is full of women, and that there are few women in the list of “famous” players in terms of publications and plenary speakers. The problem is tentatively investigating a link between those two things necessarily creates the supposition that women are perhaps actively being kept out of these top positions.

    Of course, no one has the right to suggest that the top players on Nicola and Russel’s list, any of the big publishers or IATEFL itself for that matter, engage in gender discrimination. Without evidence or testimonials from victims of discrimination, such unfounded finger-pointing would be irresponsible and dangerous. Some of the comments coming from the debate show that this is probably what is causing so much unnecessary animosity.

    I think what’s needed is a return to the main issue : Is there something discouraging women in the ELT industry from producing publications and speaker proposals, and if so, what action can we take to combat it?

    Sheryl Sandberg, as well as Emma Watson, give great examples in their work, namely that our historically patriarchal society has left hard traces of discrimination in both men and women burned into our social consciousness and behaviour. To change this, they suggest that women try to put themselves forward in business despite the negative stigma Nicola rightly mentioned, and that men and women be more conscious of such stigma in an attempt to support their female counterparts’ efforts.

    I personally support this approach, as discussing it with my own female and male students has led to real changes in perspectives, though how long-lasting I can’t say. I hope that through Nicola and Russel’s initiative we can start to spread this broad need for changes in mentality regarding gender equality to the ELT profession, where the higher proportion of women has probably led to the false assumption that we’re very advanced and forward-thinking in that regard. Let’s all be clear about what the issue is, and keep the conversation constructive as a result.

    • Nicola
      May 4, 2015

      I think the point was something else. That the infrastructure in the industry (and society at large or at least, other industries) keeps women out. Not that there are certain people at whom the finger can be pointed. And I don’t think we suggested that there was in our talk. These men having a go at me and the way they did that shows the deep-seated bias against women playing out and it is that bias that is at work rather than the individuals deliberately conspiring against women. I guarantee all three of those men see themselves as supportive, actively, of women and can’t see (maybe they can now!) how they were acting and what patterns they were following. To me, this IS the point, not a distraction from it.

      One thing about what Sheryl Sandberg says that some of the research I quoted in the post jars with is that when women put themselves forward they will be judged more negatively than a man doing the same thing. Even worse, the man will be judged positively for the same thing. Though, you’re right that both men and women need to be aware of the stigma they are themselves probably promoting in their own judgements about women. Something hopefully this post might bring to light.

      • richardosborne14
        May 4, 2015

        Yeah you’re right, we can see a sort of spitefulness emerging in some of the “big” names who’ve commented, though they don’t deserve to be given any attention for it. I like that EFL has well-developed digital platforms to publish and share knowledge on. Hopefully putting yourself forward in the industry will get easier for everyone as print publications made by the top players continue to lose their prestige, and blogs like yours or Russell’s gain credibility.

        Big players in EFL should be the innovators, leading the discussion on change with the teaching public at large. I think you can see that as those more vindictive comments from traditional innovators made up a small percentage of the overall voice for change. I hope your list encourages more women (and men) to take advantage of the technology as you’ve done.

      • richardosborne14
        May 4, 2015

        P.S. I really hope you’re wrong that the EFL industry (though I agree for almost all other industries) keeps women out. I’d hope, as I said above, that people (men and women) in our industry who let themselves be controlled by stigma and bias are a minority. If not, then I hope they become one as more ordinary folks come to the forefront through new publications and conference presentations who are conscious enough of these issues to effect real change.

      • Nicola
        May 5, 2015

        I think by infrastructure I mean norms and patterns in society and the industry eg inviting male plenaries more often than women. At the deeper cultural level I’ve just had what couldn’t have been a more depressingly perfect example of how women simply get less recognition than men for doing the same thing. A blogger, not at all maliciously, summed up, in absentia, “Russ’s talk”, commended him for always coming up with a topic that gets people’s interest and referred to me as the one who “ably assisted” him.

        Even if there were such a thing as assisting in a talk (rather than co-presenting) that is not what happened. To me, this is far more worrying than those threatened men on Facebook because it was done so casually but completed belittled my 50% EQUAL contribution. I am certain that had Russ co-presented with a man, that summary would have been different.

  5. ChristinaC
    May 3, 2015

    I’ve followed and read this with interest (or perhaps zeal), partly because I took part in the survey you put forward before your talk and partly because stereotypes and/or discrimination based on them are, what I’d call, embedded in our system, much more than we’d like to admit. And just as discrimination goes, it’s so easy to miss the point and talk about whatever strikes you as odd, good, unacceptable or ok-I-can-live-with-it. All comments have made an impression on me, I mean comments during and after your talk. Mostly reading about ”special pleading” and ”we know what is going on” made me wonder on what else we should really expect, not as women, but as people and educators (that’s also what we are, right?)
    Using a social platform, whichever platform, as a way to vent issues and just have any say because you can, seems to me you haven’t really got a PLN but a very carefully selected target group.
    On making a joke, the following came to mind instantly. Let’s delve into stereotypes further and see what comes out of it (or how we come out of it)

    • Nicola
      May 4, 2015

      Thanks for this — the QI discussion was one I’ve not seen before and is very well done.

  6. T. Veigga
    May 3, 2015

    Hi Nicola. Thank you and Russel for the great talk and thank you for speaking out.
    I have to say I was very surprised with these comments and I am truly sorry you had to deal with that.
    As a non-native speaker teacher, I know what it’s like to have to deal with the backlash when we speak up against the status quo (not that I am saying we face the same issues). On a positive note, I’d like to say that when the lynch mob begins it usually means we’re on the right way, so keep up the great work!
    I commend you for your willingness to talk about this.

    • Nicola
      May 4, 2015

      Thanks for the vote of confidence. I think there are quite a few overlaps in the two causes. I didn’t know you experienced backlash as naively I thought there was quite universal support for the NNEST movement.

      • Tyson Seburn
        May 4, 2015

        Yeah, that backlash is the thread on LinkedIn I referred to… idiocy.

  7. Tyson Seburn
    May 4, 2015

    There is little worse in education than a constructive discussion sliding into jabs of any sort. While I wasn’t part of the one you refer to, I recently participated in something similar on LinkedIn where after my one reply (I felt obliged), I determined the thread had devolved past the point where any further involvement would produce anything except unnecessary frustration for me.

    • Nicola
      May 4, 2015

      I think certain mediums are common places for that to happen. I don’t spend time on LinkedIn so am surprised to hear that a professional place has this happen as it reflects so badly on those involved in a place where they need to maintain a good profile. Facebook, people feel they are amongst friends and so, perhaps mistakenly, that everyone therefore agrees with them or are of a like mind.

      • Tyson Seburn
        May 4, 2015

        True. I did mention that her comments weren’t doing her any favours on LinkedIn, but she didn’t seem to care.

  8. TEFLninja
    May 4, 2015

    The “well a woman said to me…” reminds me of “I was in Plymouth recently and a 40-year-old black man said”. It’s not unknown for 2nd hand opinions to have passed through the reporter’s own filters before being retold.

    And yes. Women do pipe down.

    In part because there’s a long standing hangover from having had a girlhood, which inhibits ever piping up in the first place. In part because there can be an high cost to piping up.

    IME there a reason why the response to a woman making her case can get disproportionately hostile, quite so quickly.

    It works. In terms of silencing. It really, really works.

    It’s not an ELT-specific thing. It’s just that ELT exists in the same space as every other sphere of human life and endeavour. Planet Earth. A place where disproportionate hostility towards female voices is not exactly unusual.

    • Nicola
      May 5, 2015

      I think you’re right. I’m not quiet enough and it gets some people’s backs up even if they think it’s for some other reason.

      • Matthew
        May 25, 2015

        “I’m not quiet enough and it gets some people’s backs up…” Well let me join the crowd of folks who say ‘well done!’ and ‘thank you!’ for saying and doing what you say and do around an important and (needlessly) uncomfortable issue…keep being not quiet enough. In the meantime, I’ll be consciously monitoring my mind for conditioned responses around the idea that men being outspoken = strong, brave and women being outspoken = inappropriate. It IS in here (me), because it’s out there (all over). But I know what needs to be done: I need to counter it with reason and ‘recondition’ myself to be ever more healed and open.

      • Nicola
        May 26, 2015

        Thank you! I think or hope that this kind of discussion works best when it is just a mirror on influences we’re all affected by and can all change. Man 2 is totally in denial if his Twitter comments are anything to go by! Which is a pity as that means no awareness and therefore no change. He thinks, seriously, that everything he said and the way he said it was just the result of my bit of the talk not being good. If that were all it was it wouldn’t have been a problem as that is just a matter of opinion, not bias. The bias is in the way it was targeted and that must go back to conditioning.

  9. Pingback: Teachers and social networks | T in ELT - Teaching Reflections

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  11. suecowley
    October 27, 2015

    Thanks for this blog. I’ve only just stumbled across it, but it mirrors the experiences I’ve had recently when calling out gender balance on expert panels and masculine language in the educational discourse. A lot of people have made assumptions about my motivations, in a very similar way to what happened to you. I’ve made the decision not to dignify any undignified comments with any response at all and to focus only on the positive. The downside is, of course, that you end up not talking about the things you would like to talk about as often as you might. I don’t use Facebook so my experiences are mostly via Twitter. It’s interesting to see the defensiveness that can spark up when women speak their minds.

    • Nicola
      October 27, 2015

      Thank you! I went over and read a few of the posts on your blog and had to remind myself it’s bedtime and not to stay up on it all night! The defensiveness thing is interesting. A while ago I tweeted a Cindy Gallup quote about men tending to look at a situation, say being invited to speak at an event, and think “I 60% know this and I’ll just bullshit the rest” while women will think “I’m only 99% on this, probably best if someone more suitable does it.” (I must have made it shorter then to fit a Tweet!) and a man said to my boyfriend (why address me of course, I am just the one who quoted it?) that it wasn’t fair to attack men for that. …er…I wasn’t!
      And another time I called out an industry magazine for featuring only men on its 100th edition front cover. And a man (who was on the cover) and a woman wrote to my (male) partner for the above talk to say I shouldn’t be attacking the magazine as it does lots to support and promote women and a cover didn’t matter. Again, why talk to lil’ ol’ me with my silly little outbursts?
      I do think there is a difference between defensiveness and defending a point but, either way, if you can’t address the female who made the “attack”, you’re just proving my point for me. Fascinating but frustrating and depressing!

  12. David Valente
    March 23, 2016

    A very thought provoking post which certainly highlights how there’s a long way to go when it comes to gender parity in ELT circles. Nicola’s excellent awareness raising and advocacy is much needed and initiatives such as Tessa Woodward’s ‘Fair List’ are superb. I would like to extend the discussion to consider which areas of ELT one is referring to, however. As a primary and secondary ELT specialist, if someone where to ask me to name the top ten ELT ‘big names’ that come into my mind, they would almost certainly include the following: Carol Read, Gail Ellis, Sandie Mourão, Opal Dunn, Shelagh Rixon, Wendy Arnold, Joan Kang Shin, Nicky Francis, Jo Hayes and Jaynee Moon…

    In the upcoming Iatefl YLT SIG Pearl Anniversary publication, we have contributions from 20 prominent ELT authors and practitioners. Out of the 20, five authors are male. At our upcoming PCE in Birmingham focused on technology in YLELT, two of the plenary speakers are female and two are male. Also at Iatefl Birmingham, our SIG Day has 9 speakers, 8 females and one male.

    This post isn’t at all intended to detract from the need to redress the clear gender imbalance in wider ELT, but rather to add a further dimension to the debate. It could well be argued that the strong representation of women in YLELT is due to the fact that historically this specialism of the ELT profession hasn’t enjoyed the same prestige in research and conference circles. However, I my classroom practice, teacher training ability and general depth of awareness in YLELT can be largely attributed to the outstanding female mentors who’ve helped shape my skills over the years.

    • Nicola
      March 23, 2016

      Thanks for a very thoughtful response. In addition to The Fair List, there is anew initiative set up by russ and me to create a list of willing and able female plenary speakers. It’s over on and is already quite long. Perhaps you can suggest more for the YL category. I see what you’re saying yet there is one part of me that cynically says “It’s nothing new for women to be welcome in the domain of children.” And, as I think (though please correct me if you have exact info that makes this untrue) that YL is the biggest and fastest growing market in ELT so for it not to attract the same prestige in research and conference circles only seems more odd. And one possibility there is that, because women are the lead names in YL, YL is therefore not getting as much attention as other areas of ELT, meaning women are being overlooked even more than I originally thought. Or there is another reason the biggest market in ELT is not the one leading the research and conference circles?

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This entry was posted on May 3, 2015 by in ELT and tagged , , , , , , , , , , .
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